Marketing to Feelers and Thinkers

Brandon Welch: 0:00
There’s always room for emotion in a campaign. Even the most tightwad spreadsheet-wielding CPA nerd has a dream of owning a Harley Davidson, and especially with a thinker, the only way to get in is to knock on the things that are emotional for them.

Brandon Welch: 0:20
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast. Today is Maven Monday. I’m your host, brandon Welch, and I’m joined by Caleb, the Doctor of Love, Agee. What 12 years married yeah.

Caleb Agee: 0:31
Oh, yes, yes, I was like what are you talking about? Doctor of Love, that sounds.

Brandon Welch: 0:35
Caleb just celebrated his 12-year anniversary.

Caleb Agee: 0:37
Yes, we’ve been married for 12 wonderful years.

Brandon Welch: 0:41
You’re halfway on your way to your second seven-year itch that they talk about.

Caleb Agee: 0:46
I don’t know what that means. It’s not a thing. Not worried about that at all.

Brandon Welch: 0:49
Exactly so. This is the place where we answer your real doctor of love questions and how to eliminate waste and advertise and grow your business and achieve your big dream. It would be a very different podcast.

Caleb Agee: 1:00
That would be an we’re going to need to turn this down.

Brandon Welch: 1:08
We’re not qualified. Probably we’re not qualified.

Caleb Agee: 1:09
No, you know what I think we’re going to do a Maven Marriage podcast one of these days. You know what? We might even step into it a little bit today.

Brandon Welch: 1:12
We’re going to step into it today. You can definitely use this information to eliminate waste in your advertising and your marriage, grow your business and your love for each other and achieve the big dream together. We didn’t title it this way, but this is a continuation of a theme we talked about last week, which was are you ignoring half of your sales opportunities? And we broke down. It’s one of my favorite episodes. We broke down. Here’s the thing you, as either a salesperson or a business owner, or just a communicator on planet Earth trying to get something done, you have a natural way of doing things you have a natural uh approach to how you communicate, how you process information, how you build relationships, how you um offer up your thoughts to the world.

Brandon Welch: 1:56
We talked last week about that. If you are a person who likes to process externally, you are only half the population. There’s another half of the population that likes to process externally. You are only half of the population. There’s another half of the population that likes to process internally. That creates all sorts of friction in the sales and marketing process.

Brandon Welch: 2:11
And so we laid out how you would systematically and strategically create different types of messaging on all phases of the sales and marketing process to where you’re not missing people, because chances are you are missing part of the people. Unless you’re doing what we’re talking about intentionally, you’re just not naturally appealing to that person, and if you want to break through to that double digit amount of market share in your space, you’re going to have to speak to the other half of people. So we are continuing that this week with the topic of selling with emotion and logic.

Brandon Welch: 2:50
And logic and logic Because, just like there’s a big part of the population that processes externally and likes to talk to that salesperson and do that stereotypical convo, there’s a side that likes to process the details and written communication. A side that likes to process the details and written communication and a whole other spectrum here. But within the same tool of Myers-Briggs, there’s thinkers and feelers.

Brandon Welch: 3:10
And then what we’re going to talk about is judgers and perceivers, or judgers and prospectors. Yes and man, if you can understand the basics, the dualities that exist in all these little zones of personality, and you can quickly understand. Okay, I’m talking to a person who’s maybe not my innate wiring, but this person sees the world and communicates this way and you can empathetically, compassionately, offer things up in their way of processing. Yeah, you become their best friend, you become the best provider.

Brandon Welch: 3:41
You become the one that gets the referrals, you become the doctor of whatever it is you’re selling. And that’s the definition of a true expert Somebody who can take a complex thing and make it sound simple. Yeah, and making it sound simple is often a matter of putting it in somebody else’s language or worldview.

Caleb Agee: 3:59
That’s right, and I think Myers-Briggs is such a powerful tool for this and we’ve studied it a lot in our years of marketing Certifiable bona fide nerds.

Caleb Agee: 4:10
We actually play this game In our interview and application process. We ask people to take this personality test just because it’s fun for us and for them, I think, to understand themselves a little bit and what we do, brandon and I, when we’re having the meeting before we would have them take that is we actually just guess and we’re right about 90 percent of the time we put a gentleman’s wager on it.

Brandon Welch: 4:35
Yeah.

Caleb Agee: 4:36
And so it’s not like there’s anything wrong. We like to understand how we can read people and we practice it. We like to understand how we can read people and we practice it, and so part of this starts with understanding yourself, and then it starts, it moves forward into understanding the other person that you’re communicating with, or the masses that you’re communicating with, and maybe the weights that you would be talking to.

Caleb Agee: 4:56
So real quick, just for fun fact, I am an ENTJ, but these are all like percentages, so there’s ranges where you could be like 100% E. I’m actually right in the middle on E and I, so I could be an introvert or an extrovert. I could play both on intuitive. I’m definitely heavy on that side, but I’m which that’s last week’s episode we talked about introvert, extrovert and intuitive and sensing.

Brandon Welch: 5:24
So if that’s foreign to you, just listen to last week’s episode we talked about introvert, extrovert, and intuitive and sensing. So if that’s foreign to you, just listen to last week’s episode or Google it real quick. There’s a really good breakdown.

Caleb Agee: 5:31
We’re not going to go deep into that today, and then for the next two, which we’ll talk about today thinking I’m definitely a thinker which we’ll talk about we knew that? Yeah, we knew that Wash your glasses up, would you? Yeah, I’m a thinker. And then J and P. I actually am right in the middle on these two as well. I could take the test today and get one, take it tomorrow and get the other, and so Probably depending on how much time you’d spent around me in the last 24 hours.

Caleb Agee: 6:00
You versus my wife, who is almost on, except for one category. No, actually two categories you guys share. Yeah. So, but there are two categories you guys are complete polar opposites. On which is you guys pull me?

Brandon Welch: 6:19
in those directions.

Caleb Agee: 6:19
Yes, so. So what are you Tell me about yourself, caleb?

Brandon Welch: 6:21
is an extroverted, intuitive thinker, judger, judger, which means he processes information externally. He looks at patterns more than he looks at individual granular details to make decisions. He prefers to make decisions out of logic versus emotion and on any given day, he’s going to be more likely to be a crosser off of lists than he is an explorer of possibilities, although he speaks both languages, which is why we get along so well.

Caleb Agee: 6:50
Yeah, it’s helpful.

Brandon Welch: 6:52
I drive the J types nuts. And with that. I tend to be an extroverted at 100% right, getting less in my older age but we share the intuition, intuitive thought processing type thing. I’m actually more on the feeler side, if you couldn’t tell, and we’ll talk about the split there’s actually a gender split there. 70% of females tend to be feeling versus thinkers and that’s inverse on the male side 70% of males tend to be thinkers.

Brandon Welch: 7:25
So, it’s kind of rare to break that mold. And then the perceiving the P, which is leave options open. There’s strengths and weaknesses to that as there are all the others. And so it’s not a matter of good, bad or indifferent. It’s a matter of like what are you, when can you plug in and, more importantly, how can you understand the people around?

Caleb Agee: 7:45
you, yeah, and, and, as we say all of these things today, keep in mind these are preferences. Right Thinkers have to be. They make. They do make emotional decisions. Feelers make logical decisions. It happens every single day and we’re going to talk about the nuances of this. So, when we paint with broad brushes, uh, we have to stereotype, to understand it a little bit, but there’s every. Every human is nuanced and capable of all sides of this, this thing Cause we’re, we’re people, we’re complex style that everybody jumps into when they go to work too.

Brandon Welch: 8:14
Yes, generally I think so, yeah, and, and there’s who you are at home and who you are on TV.

Caleb Agee: 8:18
There’s kind of a there’s who you are on TV. Uh, who are you in this podcast?

Brandon Welch: 8:22
I’m on TV right now TV.

Caleb Agee: 8:23
Brandon, right now, turn on your TV voice. Yeah, okay. So we’re going to dig into it first. With the dynamics between thinkers and feelers, you’re going to add something real quick.

Brandon Welch: 8:34
Just one little thing. Do it as you’re hearing this. Think about who are you innately and think about a time you’ve had a prospect, or a coworker, or maybe somebody at church, or maybe you know Somebody in your own house, somebody you’re married to. Yeah, maybe a family member, and just think of wow, if I had leaned into their style, how might I have gotten farther.

Caleb Agee: 8:59
Yes, yeah, yeah, um, this thinking and feeling thing, uh is actually a lot of marriage counselors uh probably work a lot of time in this range 100 and so, um, because we, as brandon mentioned, um, men, are more weighted towards thinking and because of that, are less able to identify their feelings with words, and that’s actually a marriage counseling 101. Print off a. This is actually really good for your kids. To print off a feelings chart helps them articulate uh what they’re feeling in those moments. Sounds a little bit woo woo, but I promise you actually helps unlock their their processing and it will prepare them for their future and married life.

Brandon Welch: 9:43
Almost every young human being has um a prefrontal cortex that has not grown at the same speed as their emotional processing right side of the brain. That’s why you get illogical behavior from younger persons, and that happens even more often in males.

Caleb Agee: 10:01
We take longer to finish developing our brains too.

Brandon Welch: 10:04
So when you ask a kid, why did you just do that, the answer is they don’t know, they don’t, there was no logic and that’s the right answer.

Caleb Agee: 10:10
I don’t know. It’s not. That is not them lying to you. Yes, they really don’t know.

Brandon Welch: 10:14
Yes.

Caleb Agee: 10:15
I got to remember that sometimes.

Brandon Welch: 10:16
Yes, exactly I was about to say I need to go listen to this episode here.

Caleb Agee: 10:19
Yeah, no kidding Tonight.

Brandon Welch: 10:22
But the thinking function gets us into trouble because it ignores half of humanity. And I will just say a lot of really, really good salespeople tend to be thinking heavy, they tend to think logical, they think this step, this step, this step, this step. And they think I know my product so well, I know all the details. You’re an idiot if you don’t see it this way. How could you not arrive at this same decision?

Caleb Agee: 10:47
Yes.

Brandon Welch: 10:48
Okay, and even in the most objective of categories selling things like financial services or if you’re an attorney or something like that what you have to realize is that A the person on the other side, no matter their preference, isn’t equipped with that, and so there’s always an emotional uncertainty, fear of making the wrong decision in some sort of buying process. But lay out thinkers for us, yeah, and if you’re dealing with a thinker, you’re probably well, you may be in luck, because a thinker is probably a little bit more of a structured sales process. Yeah, go for it, though.

Caleb Agee: 11:31
Okay. So thinkers are going to focus on the task or the business at hand. They’re going to be researched and logical. These two definitely, you can kind of take them at face value. But they want accuracy. They do not like mistakes, they don’t like failure of repetition. If a pattern isn’t showing up consistently, they logically say that thing’s broken.

Brandon Welch: 11:57
Yeah, Do you know what I’m saying? Yes, they don’t like inefficiency.

Caleb Agee: 12:00
Yeah, and they need. So this dynamic has to these. This dynamic has to do with decision making, which is the key element in the buying process. This is everything in sales and marketing.

Brandon Welch: 12:12
This is, um a person it will go to. Thinkers prefer logical reasons for why they should buy this Not not do they like you? Not do they like what you’re wearing today? Not do they like the music that’s playing? Um, not who your family is, where you’re from and your life story, and did you go to the same college. They want to know the technical specs. I’m buying this computer. It is a one terabyte storage and it is $900 if it’s an IBM and it’s $3,200 if it’s a Mac. That does not compute for a thinker. Why in the world would I pay more for that technical spec? Right? They want to ask why. They want to drill and understand that the world is sound on their comparison chart, their pros and cons.

Caleb Agee: 12:55
You’ve got a reason for all the things.

Brandon Welch: 12:57
Yes, A chance for achievement and acknowledgement. So like oh, you are so well-read, you are right, you are exactly right. This model has 17 speakers and this one only has nine, and so you are paying $34 extra per speaker on this car, right? Like just simple things like that, right.

Caleb Agee: 13:19
Yeah, and then thinkers in the workplace, they will want a sense of fairness. They will want fairness in the sense, not like fairness in how it feels, but fairness in. If you issue 15 days of PTO, everybody should get 15 days and you don’t get more until this time. And unless you’ve achieved this one year gap, you don’t get the extra day.

Brandon Welch: 13:43
And Nate doesn’t get a pass for coming at nine 30. Cause his cat was thrown up this morning.

Caleb Agee: 13:48
Yeah, that’s not fair to a thinker, that’s not fair to everyone else who did show up, who had their own stuff to deal with, and so that’s, that’s their very logical processing. I say they it’s because, dang it.

Brandon Welch: 14:00
Carter’s here every day at 8 am and he never has a sick cat.

Caleb Agee: 14:02
That’s right. So how’s that fair to Carter. He didn’t bother having a cat. Yeah, he wouldn’t have a cat In the first place.

Brandon Welch: 14:07
No, I’m just kidding, that’s not a logical thing. I’m going to say that cat owners are feeler, preferencing Felineers. Oh, they’re felineers. Yeah, see how he did that. Thinkers don’t tend to tolerate puns very well, I’ve learned, hi Aaron. So when you spot a thinker, this is probably I mean, this is going to be something who’s going to come equipped? They’re going to ask you about some technical detail. Almost it’s going to feel like they’re trying to get you. But as soon as that happens, you know oh, I’ve got a thinker. Yes, okay.

Brandon Welch: 14:42
Now there’s a certain threshold. I think you never stop being yourself, yeah Like you never compromise your values, you never compromise your family, you never violate your processes. But you can go. Okay. Now we’re going to lean into product specs and the worst thing you can do for a thinker is to try to outsmart them, especially if you’re not equipped. Mm-hmm.

Brandon Welch: 15:06
Probably let them have the victory of being well-informed and just say yeah, you’re right about that, even if you’re not quite sure that they are. Or yeah, and have you read about this? Don’t try to tell them what they know. Say oh, and did you read about this as well?

Caleb Agee: 15:18
That’s a really good language for a thinker. They’ll be in research mode before they showed up to your showroom or wherever that is, and you have to assume when you’re spotting signals of a thinker, you have to assume that they’ve been to three other showrooms with similar products and they know what they’re talking about because they’re researching it.

Brandon Welch: 15:35
If you can pencil out an ROI for that thinker on the spot, boom, you’ve got them. If you can lay out a cost analysis, if you can articulate why it reduced them waste, if you can talk about future functionality and why this is a good investment. Now and why buying this piece of technology or investing in this service is going to prevent them from X amount of turnover in their business or X amount of fights with their wife or X amount of lost opportunity in the stock market or something, even if you’re selling luxury products.

Brandon Welch: 16:09
I’m thinking of some of our jeweler clients. It’s like this is the person you probably lean into. Cut clarity color and all of that stuff. Now don’t ever abandon totally that. There’s an emotional, real reason that even thinkers are buying. There’s always an emotional reason in those types of products. Yeah, but maybe lean into the tech specs and try to flex your industry stuff here.

Brandon Welch: 16:35
That’s right. Cost per feature percentage of satisfaction. So we’re going to contrast this and we’re going to go into feelers, you want to focus on percentage of satisfaction versus stories. With thinkers, you want to focus on percentage of satisfaction versus stories with thinkers. Or if you’re telling a story, make sure it has. You know it’s laced with some like statistical anecdote yeah Right. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, I think so Cool. So now you understand thinkers. Let’s talk about these weirdos called the feelers.

Caleb Agee: 16:58
The feelers. Do you want to take it Sure?

Brandon Welch: 17:01
How do you spot a feeler, Caleb? Uh, how do you spot a?

Caleb Agee: 17:02
feeler. How do you spot a feeler? Oh boy, you look right across the table and you find one.

Brandon Welch: 17:06
Um so first they’ll be crying There’ll be a tear rolling out of their eye, waiting for you to catch it.

Caleb Agee: 17:12
Um, so feelers are going to be expressive, connective and personal. So feelers are going to be, naturally, they’re going to have more feelings. They’re going to use feeling language often. You can sense it, man, I like that shirt. Yes, they are going to observe.

Brandon Welch: 17:31
My cousin has a shirt like that. Yes, and it looks great when he wears it and it looks even better when you wear it, yeah.

Caleb Agee: 17:36
He is trying to make an emotional connection with me when he talks like that. There’s a feeling connection. That’s happening and they’re definitely going to make their decisions based on their heart instead of their head, and this is the dynamic here. It’s how are you making your decisions? A feeler is all about the heart, and Roy Williams is famous for saying win the heart and the mind will follow. Or speak to the heart first and the mind will follow.

Brandon Welch: 18:06
I think is how he says it. Now we could blur a line with that statement real quick. Yeah, I think what do you mean? I don’t want to jump, I don’t want to put no carts in front of horses, but I’m going to. Yeah, yeah there’s always room for emotion in a campaign. Yes.

Brandon Welch: 18:22
Because even dude, even the most tightwad spreadsheet-wielding CPA nerd has a dream of owning a Harley Davidson or wants to fly, or wants to go scuba diving or has some sort of little boy void in his life that he needs to have. And it’s funny when you see people like that that are super buttoned up analytically, yeah, but then they go to their thing, they go to their they go to a Taylor Swift concert and they’re just, yes, they’re going crazy.

Caleb Agee: 18:59
And you’re like oh, that doesn’t fit in your character, but it does.

Brandon Welch: 19:03
And especially with a thinker, the only way to get in when they are constantly saying is this worth my time? Is this worth my money? What does this do for me? Again, I’m painting with a really stereotypical brush, but the only way to get in to a thinker is to knock on the things that are emotional for them. So when we’re talking about building campaigns, it’s not that we leave one out and there’s not a way to get to one. It’s just when they’re in front of you and you’re trying to size them up and speak their language tactically this is what we’re talking about.

Brandon Welch: 19:33
Sorry, I didn’t mean to derail there.

Caleb Agee: 19:34
No problem, feelers will prefer lots of approval and positive feedback. Brandon, you’re doing a great job today.

Brandon Welch: 19:41
Oh, thank you you, brandon, you’re doing a great job today.

Caleb Agee: 19:49
Oh, thank you, you’re welcome, I’d like to thank God and my parents A chance to see how the facts relate to people, so this is an interesting dynamic. If you are a thinker, you need to connect your numbers to feelings, to people, to things. Tell a story. We actually have a lot of thinkers around here in the marketing world, and the marketing world can turn very thinky really fast because you have impressions and clicks and click through rates, and even on this podcast, you’ve heard us talk like that. What we have to do, though, is tell a story, because the numbers aren’t just the numbers. The numbers tell a story, yes, and so.

Brandon Welch: 20:27
I can take bad numbers, tell a good story around them and totally fake a thinker out. You can do that. Yeah. Yeah, and so I didn’t mean to say I can do that because I do it all the time.

Caleb Agee: 20:39
It’s possible to do that, yes it is, and so that’s the thing is. What you want to do is tell the stories, make sure they have lots of recognition, they get to act on their values, their personal priorities. Feelers are definitely.

Brandon Welch: 20:55
By all means bring up pictures of your kids. Tell them about how you love their same sports team. Find out where they went to college. Look for the mutual friend you share on Facebook. Talk about the young kid in back who’s going to be helping do this project. Talk about your causes and not to be in any way manipulative, but if you are dealing with somebody who’s demonstrating female like, leaning into your stories, like dude those things are really cool to tell Like you have your company values for a reason. Yeah, um, a lot of times here. Here’s the fun thing and every decision and every like major purchase decision for a household, there’s going to be a thinker and a feeler involved. Yeah, like it’s going to be. She’s the feeler and he’s a thinker. Most often, or sometimes, it’ll be vice versa. I can think of friends that it’s the opposite, but still, you know you’re going to have to load both sides of it right.

Caleb Agee: 21:48
Most people’s brains have to roll through both sides. It’s just which one will they arrive at first? That we have to address, because there’s still the reality of how much money’s in my bank account. You know what I’m saying? Yeah, that is a thinking reality that I have to account for next, and so you can. But if I’m a feeler, approach with the feelings, lead with feelings, talk like feelings you’re still gonna have to speak to the money or the stats or the details or the reasons at the end.

Brandon Welch: 22:21
There’s a book called the Art of Speed Reading People, which we have in the other room. Yep, and did we give a copy of that away? I don’t think so. There’s a cheat sheet in there and it’s like hey thinkers probably dress this way. Intuitive or sorry, introverted thinkers probably dress this way. Here’s some clues you’ll pick up on Interesting yeah.

Brandon Welch: 22:40
Yeah, and I’m not going to do that in this episode because I don’t want to be that guy stereotyping for a broad audience. But there will be clues and there will be clues for the feelers and it’s in the language and it’s dialogue, it’s how they show up, it’s how they talk and you just want to position your content, the context of what you’re talking about, to push one of them higher than the other. Yeah.

Brandon Welch: 23:06
So last checklist on feelers tell stories, show pictures, reviews and stars less than like percentages of you know, we talked about percentage of satisfaction with thinkers. Talk more about the reviews and the five-star ratings. Videos, pretty colors, all of those things, yeah Right pretty colors, all of those things.

Caleb Agee: 23:23
Yeah, what we’ve found also very often when you’re writing. For we know there are three types of customers today, tomorrow, yesterday, the today and the tomorrow customers. Your today customer is very transactional. They have no preference to you in any way and it’s price, speed, hassle and that is a very logical decision. That is just faster, cheaper, better, easier. Sounds like a death note song.

Brandon Welch: 23:50
So today, customer buying is way more stressful. For a feeler person yes, a feeler-preferencing person who suddenly has to buy a refrigerator because his or hers went bad, that’s a very stressful thing and the thinker goes oh well, I’ve kind of expected this coming. I knew I had statistically 346 days left in this fridge and it went bad a little earlier. So he’s going to go straight to the spreadsheet of ratings and all that stuff. But I think how I would apply that is to know that a constant should be feeling in emotional campaigns.

Brandon Welch: 24:26
We talk about commitment, quality and relationships building that no matter what in your campaigns for the tomorrow customer. But if you haven’t had the luxury, if your campaign hasn’t been running long enough, or this person who entered your sales process hasn’t had the luxury of bonding with you in those ways and they’re in thinking mode, even a feel is like okay, I don’t want to lose money on this yeah, yeah, um be like. Hey, I know you’re feeling this is stressful, isn’t it?

Brandon Welch: 24:51
oh yeah thank you so much. Yes, so stressful. I can’t just didn’t even know this was gonna happen, right? Well, hey, um, I have some, I have a. If this were my mom buying a refrigerator, here’s what I would tell her. Yeah, and she goes oh, wow, that’s so helpful, like what?

Caleb Agee: 25:04
would you do? That’s, that’s how you sell a, you know a feeler in a, in a today, or like a yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think, or you can go what do you?

Brandon Welch: 25:13
what’s your budget? Yeah, what are you trying to make happen? Like, do you want the? Yeah, do you want the bells and whistles or don’t you? Because I’ll take you straight to the product and he’s like, like, thank you.

Caleb Agee: 25:21
I know what I already know what I want. I did the research before I showed up. So what we do know about the human brain it is easier to get stored in long-term memory when you enter from the we’ll say the right side of the brain. The feeling side of the brain will when you have an emotional fun fact, the hormone that stores information the longest is adrenaline, and so if you think about moments in your childhood that you can still remember, there is adrenaline that course through your body at that moment Abundance of joy, abundance of fear, abundance of loss, abundance of hurt, abundance of laughter.

Brandon Welch: 26:02
That’s the best one yep so and then you wonder that you know budweiser’s, or you know and it’s, but what the budweiser’s?

Brandon Welch: 26:10
I didn’t say budweiser’s, like it had an s on it come on, I know budweiser although chorus does but budweiser with their Clydesdales largest market share of any company until a few years ago when they did something else that was equally emotionally jolting for some of the population. Yeah, and they bond people to their brand and their preference by making smiles, fists, tears that’s what we talk about in Maybe, marketer. So always have emotional going because it’s going to make your name pop off the list and make people feel something about you, even if, when they go to the sales process, they’re analytical. A lot of this is the most useful at the finish line, or in the curation process yes, Speaking of other useful tools.

Brandon Welch: 26:53
we talked about thinking, feeling. So we’re on the last letter. We’ve talked about introvert, extrovert on the last episode Sensing versus intuition in the last episode. This episode we’ve talked about feeling versus thinking and how to identify those people.

Caleb Agee: 27:08
Last one is judging versus perceiving 16 personalities. Is also calling it prospecting.

Brandon Welch: 27:13
Yeah, they added.

Caleb Agee: 27:17
Judging and perceiving has always been kind of the really ambiguous they have. The hardest names at face value. You don’t really know what you’re talking about. I’m judging people. That sounds a little has kind of a negative connotation.

Brandon Welch: 27:26
Carl Jung had a reason for calling it that, but that was the 1920s.

Caleb Agee: 27:30
Yeah, so it probably doesn’t mean what it used to mean, and so don’t think that you’re judging people necessarily. There are 5% more judging people than perceiving. So pretty close, 45, 55% there, and this dynamic is all about planning and organization and dedication.

Brandon Welch: 27:52
Stop and think who is the stereotypical planner, the keeper of list? He or she has had organizer for probably half their life. They do calendar invites. Had an organizer for probably half their life. They do calendar invites. They’re early to their meetings, their lunch meetings, even if it’s with dear old friends. They wake up with a to-do about them. That’s right. I must get this done right. Think about that person because that’s going to become very useful and go oh, when you enter this we’re talking about in sales, when we enter a relationship, we go, relationship. We go oh. That feels like, and in my mind it’s either my wife, or my mother-in-law the pop center, like you know or my friend audrey, or yeah riley it was.

Caleb Agee: 28:31
It was really funny. I was, I was uh working on the script today and we literally had uh interactions of these two dynamics, because we this. This one shows up really in how you work together. It’s a little bit less in the sales and marketing process and communication. This is more in how you see the work at your hands. Yes, and so, judging they’re going to be the ones who make the list and check the boxes. They will complete a task and even if it wasn’t on their task list, they will write it down, put a box next to it and check off the box, because they love that feeling of finishing, I think in our job recruiting ads we talk about are you the type of person that keeps to-do lists even on Saturdays?

Brandon Welch: 29:13
And they’re like, oh yeah.

Caleb Agee: 29:15
Oh yeah, they love goals. They want regular feedback about the progress to the goal. Are we almost done? They’re all about the finish line, um, and they’re stressed by last minute um revisions because they see, oh, I’m at 95, that means I’m almost done and I will be done very soon.

Caleb Agee: 29:34
to backtrack to 65 oh stress, that hurts so bad feels like they’ve wasted half their life um, let’s jump over to the other one, just for contrast prospecting or perceiving people will seek options. Options, not, not check boxes, not things to finish P equals procrastinate, p it can mean procrastinate. It can also. I always say, uh, p means big picture, it’s uh, it’s like oh I. Why would I choose that one way to go when I could choose from the dozens that I have? Yes, and there’ll be a dozen more tomorrow.

Brandon Welch: 30:08
So if you’re selling me, for example, extrovert, let’s have a dialogue. Yeah, yeah, let’s do all that Intuitive. Probably don’t stop and like, go granular with everything. I want to see everything first Feeling yeah, tell me the stories, yeah, show me the picture, show me the videos, all that stuff and your marketing materials. But P when it comes time to like, am I doing this today? I don’t know, I may have come out of the car. I may buy this today. I may wait five more months.

Caleb Agee: 30:35
Right, We’ll just see how I feel that’s terrible.

Brandon Welch: 30:37
I’m sorry that I do that to you, but the way you would satisfy my prospecting brain, because I’m always going that’s really cool. Wonder prospecting brain, because I’m always going that’s really cool, Wonder what else is really cool. Not, oh, that’s really cool, I’ll buy it, it’s. I wonder what else is really cool. And so show me all the brands. Overwhelm me. Bad, bad, bad sales advice. That is really bad sales advice.

Caleb Agee: 30:58
You should actually have three options is the best sales advice this one or this one Prospecting people will seek. They will learn from natural consequences as things unfold. So they’re going to, they’re going to see, like, let’s say, three different lanes. They’re, they’re going to like, lean into each of those three lanes and see which one trips them up, which one goes kind of well, which one they like, which one feels good They’ll walk. They’ll walk down that path four steps and then they’ll back up and then they’ll walk down the next path and then they’ll back up and then they’re going to go down another path. Because why, why would I go all the way to the end of that path when there’s three other ones to go check out?

Brandon Welch: 31:34
now, why in the world would that be a good way to live? I don’t know.

Caleb Agee: 31:37
We want to live that way I, I can score in this way sometimes as well, and and it is, it’s tough because there’s a lot of options.

Brandon Welch: 31:45
These are the people that do well zigging while other people zag, because they um not speaking of myself, but they are so curious that they will literally turn over every rock and they will be the ones who look out and find something under that rock at some point. Yeah. And so long as they have a J in their life or in their circle to save them from imminent yeah.

Caleb Agee: 32:10
See what I did there.

Brandon Welch: 32:11
You got it Imminent doom, yeah. And, like you know, a train running over them, yeah. They can be effective people as long as they have that person To balance them. Helping them, yeah, balancing them.

Caleb Agee: 32:22
Because the danger is it’s right. It’s a blessing and a curse, right, ginger, is it’s a blessing and a curse, right? Yes, there are a lot of options. You will find something new and different that nobody else has found, but then the J will also help things to get done. Yes, because the P will leave it open. Yes. They’ll be like oh, it’s probably almost done, but I could see myself working on that a little bit longer.

Brandon Welch: 32:46
Structure is limiting. If you want a problem solver, if you want to look at a problem like look at something that’s like oh, I’m stuck, I’m at a dead end find a p or an np an intuitive perceiver or an intuitive prospector, you’ll find something you didn’t ever think of, especially if you’re that strong that’s right, j type so um very effective in teams all right, let’s go back to the j.

Caleb Agee: 33:08
We’re jumping around here. J’s will prefer schedules, timelines and structures. They want a chance to organize and plan projects. Think about somebody at work. That’s a j. They have a checkbox, they have a planner on their desk. You know, you can picture them right now. Um a sense of completion and closure. Things are done. Yes, um relationally, jays are in or out yes that very much it is.

Caleb Agee: 33:35
You are either like J’s will clean up their facebook friends because that person’s not really in my life anymore. Why would I need to see updates from them? A P will be like oh, you never know if I’ll see them again, or need to see them, or whatever uh, peas have 4 000 contacts in their phone books.

Brandon Welch: 33:51
Yes, because I may need them someday who knows?

Caleb Agee: 33:53
that happened to me last week somebody, somebody from second grade. I definitely will need their phone number here, when I’m 55.

Brandon Welch: 33:59
That’s, that’s gonna happen I have, uh, people I went to high school with I have not talked to in 16 years or how long that’s been, and I still keep their numbers because I’m gonna need them and one day the other day, I called one of them wow and I needed something that I knew he did, and now he’s doing a very big project for me in my house.

Brandon Welch: 34:20
good, so, um, anyway, so good stuff. That’s how caleb ended up at frank and maven. Yep, I kept Caleb’s number six years longer Sitting there with my AG at the top of his phone book.

Caleb Agee: 34:31
That’s right, sorry. So, P’s, you need to make sure you give them a chance to be spontaneous, you give them a chance to explore the options and be flexible Options that’s a key word, especially in a sales process. Give them rewards for working the process as well as the results. They will be actually more results-driven than process-driven. They’re going to be like well what’s the outcome, what’s the end of this?

Brandon Welch: 34:56
They’re looking for the best.

Caleb Agee: 34:57
That’s why they’re like well, I’m not sure this is the best yet, I’m not sure that’s the best yet, and so you need to show them ah, look at the Options. You need to show them, ah, look at the outcome, and then give them appreciation for seeing things that a focus on completion may miss.

Brandon Welch: 35:14
Give them all the options and eliminate Judgers. Give them a small number of options and add. That might be a really good duality there.

Caleb Agee: 35:20
Yeah. So my favorite analogy is a J will. When they walk through a door, they figuratively close it behind them. Yes, I’ve walked from that room. Why would I ever need to go back to that room? I’m done with that room, it’s over. A P will leave that door propped open. If you want to go with my P, they’ll leave it propped open because I don’t know I might go back there. Who knows Prop open the? They’ll leave it propped open because I don’t know I might go back there.

Brandon Welch: 35:49
Who knows Prop open the door. Yes Language for P’s. If you know you’re dealing with one and you’ll pretty well figure out that they’re indecisive. When you know that you could always change blank later, you know we could get this one done and I can always add that on later. Or hey, if you don’t like it, we can swap it out. I’ll let you trade it back in if it’s one of those type of items. Or money back guarantees, or hey, man, this is not a life-changing decision. Which one do you feel is the best right now? Which one are you sure you don’t want? That might be a good-. Help them eliminate.

Caleb Agee: 36:24
Help them eliminate yeah, it might be good. Good help and eliminate. Yeah, so it might be good for um, for J’s. They, they will love to get the thing done. So show up for them in a way that, um, you show them exactly the steps it’s going to take to get to 100, that that way they know that home improvement project is checked off their list and it is done, not some meand. Yeah, we’ll see in two to three weeks. They want to know that in 3.5 weeks this will be done. If you have a TJ, that’s the exact way to talk to them.

Brandon Welch: 36:55
I think I can get it done by Friday, the 11th, at 3 pm.

Caleb Agee: 36:59
Yes, and that sort of completion mindset that helps them understand that they’re done. Them understand that they’re done, um and uh. I think the other thing is, um, just really focus on this, this dynamic, when you I totally lost my train of thought right there cut that point out, take it away I lost your train of thought too yeah, I had another point and I just so I say last thing I said was friday, the 11th, at 3 pm.

Brandon Welch: 37:27
Yes, I’ll have this done by Friday, the 11th, at 3 pm. Yeah, okay. So review here. We’re going back to thinkers and feelers. If you’ve got yourself a thinker, you’re going to give them the statistical information You’re going to close that way. You’re going to do less storytelling. If you’ve got a feeler on your hand.

Brandon Welch: 37:45
you’re going to do a lot of storytelling. You’re going to talk about how it affects people. You’re going to talk about how they’re going to feel when they make this decision and they have the thing that you’re trying to help them get Judgers and perceivers. Judgers are going to say this is my timeline. Hey, you could have this by exact date, at exact time.

Brandon Welch: 38:09
You’re going to give and the processes they love a checklist man, a guide, or your steps to ownership or your steps to having the outcome, the family plan done, or the financial plan or the estate plan or whatever. P’s are going to ask a lot of questions and you just need to tune your attention for that. One thing.

Brandon Welch: 38:24
Because sales environments I’ll say this every sales manager wants to believe you’re selling J’s and you can rush them to that process. Yes, and the person who doesn’t bring that tenacity and that structure and that pressure to like J’s will mostly appreciate it. But a P will be like paralyzed by it. So don’t run a P off. Just I wish I could tell you a better answer, but just when you know for sure you’re dealing with one and you got somebody asking for all the options, he or she, the salesperson who gives them the most options and answers the most questions, probably wins. Yeah.

Brandon Welch: 39:00
And so that’s how you won that person over. You were going to add something else.

Caleb Agee: 39:03
An interesting thing, though, with a P type of person is there. You don’t know if they’re going to buy today or in three months because they’re so options oriented. So a little way to maybe bring them in would be they could go big today. They could go big today, you don’t know.

Brandon Welch: 39:21
I’ve seen them do it.

Caleb Agee: 39:22
And so what you need to do is try to get the commitment, though Hold them to that, because that will be their weakness is committing to the thing, and so you don’t-?

Brandon Welch: 39:33
Or maybe jump, step and say by doing this today, do you realize how many doors you’re going to open up for yourself? Yeah, well, that’s good. Use it against them. Good language.

Caleb Agee: 39:39
I think. So get them to commit but give them the option that it has an out and that’s a good way to kind of find the balance of both worlds for a P in the sales process, because the danger is they could be wandering for who knows how long. That’s when your yesterday marketing shows up big time.

Brandon Welch: 39:59
Absolutely.

Caleb Agee: 39:59
Because those wandering prospectors.

Brandon Welch: 40:03
These last two episodes, I believe, are evergreen. I believe these are. I believe people will be listening to these for five, ten years and our Maven tribe will be, sending them to people, because this is a huge answer to a lot of questions.

Brandon Welch: 40:16
Yeah, what we’ve tried to do in the last few weeks. There is chaos amongst us. There is a nation just trembling one way or the other, and so we’ve taken you through how to cash in on your brand equity. We’ve taken you through how to diagnose real trends in your business. If you missed that episode, that is an infinitely useful episode and, to be honest with you, we didn’t get the email on that one out on time, so you may have missed it. I highly recommend you do that. We didn’t get the email on that one out on time, so you may have missed it. That is, I highly recommend you do that.

Brandon Welch: 40:50
We’ve talked about how, no matter what environment you’re in because when things aren’t moving, you got to be a little more scrappy these last two episodes, if you didn’t realize, all of this stuff is without spending an extra penny on your marketing. This is eliminating waste by being more efficient in the way you connect with people. That will always, always, always move mountains. You can always turn that leverage up. It doesn’t matter how bad things are or weird things are or great things are. You can always grab more of your fair share. And the big beauty, the big idea is serving people the way they need to be served in a compassionate, empathetic, joyful way.

Brandon Welch: 41:25
And you will be a provider that rises to the top. You will be the provider that has the best referrals, the best reviews, and that takes us back to our original mission, which is limiting waste and advertising, growing your business, achieving the big dream, don’t we all want to be that highly effective person, the highly effective communicator? So go back to last week’s episode. If you didn’t get it, replay this one. Hey, send this to somebody who, maybe you know, has had a difficult spout with a somebody with another human.

Brandon Welch: 41:56
If you know two humans disagreeing right now, having turbulence, this would be a great language to study.

Caleb Agee: 42:04
Find someone who I’ll use this language. Compliments you, ooh.

Brandon Welch: 42:10
Find somebody.

Caleb Agee: 42:11
Hopefully has an opposite preference from you, but maybe you guys find friction in that duality. This is a powerful way to do that and I’d encourage you to go study it more. We are not the foremost experts on this. We’re just communicators who love understanding people. And, um, we’re not gonna pretend like we’ve studied this only for all of our lives.

Caleb Agee: 42:34
We study marketing more than anything, Um, but this helps you so, so much, and so I want to encourage you, um, go look into this more. Um, I think we may uh, sneak in some other tools personality and workplace type tools to help use them as a lens. It’s not everything, but it’s just a lens to help you understand the people you’re communicating with.

Brandon Welch: 42:55
Our favorite book is the Art of Speed Reading People. Nate’s going to put the link to that up here and if you will forward this to a coworker, I’m going to do something big here. You will forward this to somebody you think needs it and just screenshot the email where you forwarded it. I’m going to send the first five people that do that a free copy of the Art of Speed Reading People.

Caleb Agee: 43:13
Bring it on.

Brandon Welch: 43:14
That’s a $20 book.

Caleb Agee: 43:15
Holy cow, that’s actually getting hard to find.

Brandon Welch: 43:16
We have some of them, though. Great, great book Cheat sheet makes all this very actionable and you will live better, you will work better, you will sell better, you will market better, and we’re so honored that you let us help you do that with this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We’ll be back here every week, and next week we have a really, really great question from our buddy, raj, and we’re going to probably just do the whole episode on that.

Caleb Agee: 43:43
Yeah, I think it’s interesting. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s interesting.

Brandon Welch: 43:45
Yeah, it’s about where does inbound fit with tomorrow marketing? Yeah, and I think he’s going to love the answer and I know that everybody else will find value in his thinking.

Caleb Agee: 43:55
Yeah, hey, we still have a couple slots open If you would like to sign up for one of our free strategic sessions with our team. Those have not all been pulled up. One left, yep, and so I want to encourage you to email us mavenmonday@ frankandmavencom Before right just do it before November, because we’re going to have to do those in December.

Brandon Welch: 44:21
Yeah, we’re booked out, so we’ll be back here every week answering your real-life marketing questions, because marketers who cannot teach you why are just a fancy lie. Have a great week.