How to Double Your Business Without Advertising (ft. Alec Palen)

Brandon Welch 0:00
The question being asked in every scaling business right now is, how can we make more profit, not how can we make less profit and get more goodwill?

Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast. Today is Maven Monday. I’m your host, Brandon Welch, and I’m joined today by my dear friend Alec Palen Howdy, a third generation leader of Palen Music Center, he’s going to teach us today everything you ever needed to know about company culture, customer experience and massive business growth,

Alec Palen 0:34
everything you need to know, okay, everything

Brandon Welch 0:35
you need to know. All right, the world is on your shoulder. Try, just in case you forgot, this is the place where we answer your real life marketing questions. You can eliminate waste in advertising, grow your business and achieve the big dream. And speaking of the big dream, my first big dream was, literally, I’ve written articles about this. You can go back and look, was to work for Palen Music Center. I was a kid dying to be around music. And it was like, you know, most kids dream about going to the, you know, toy store, or whatever. Mine was the music store ever since I was a little kid, and that was your family’s company right here, and my hometown. And because of that, Alec and I go way back, I started working there as a kid. I’m not sure Alec was even born yet, but they let me sweep the floors and, you know, make $3 an hour, which I thought was the greatest thing ever. I’m like, I get paid to do this, and then I got to clean the spit out of trumpets. And then I passed that job off to some young punk that came in. Who was that? Who was that? I think it might have been you. Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:34
you trained me how to clean trumpets, and we’ve been

Brandon Welch 1:38
friends ever since. Was a bonding experience was yes, but the farther I go in my career, this is not This is rare. I don’t think anybody looks back and says, Well, my first job, you know, flipping burgers or cleaning cars or babysitting or whatever, taught me a lot about life. And I know it sounds like, maybe like I’m doing just just because you’re on the podcast here, but I’ve truly written about what a remarkable experience that was. I learned more about leadership and people and culture and values and just overall like personal growth. Your dad actually gave me my first serious business book I ever got, and it was how to win friends, influence people. And then your uncle gave me a copy of the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, which those actual books. The copies are around here somewhere. They’re in our they’re in our library. So it’s awesome. Palen music and your family has been an extremely big deal to me, and so couldn’t be more proud or excited to have you on as a personal, you know, venture. But I’m even more excited for our audience, because this is not just a little music store that Brandon is excited about. Palen music has grown to four states. They are a mega force in the midwest of retail, and that’s really out of any category. They’re servicing over 1000 individual schools with 10 stores putting instruments in the hands of over 100,000 new musicians every year. And if you think about the impact of that, without their company, a lot of these kids, a lot of these schools, wouldn’t have access to this. We’re going to talk a lot about that. What you should know, though, is that they are the largest independently owned music store probably in America. They’re definitely the top 10 independent owned music stores in North America.

Unknown Speaker 3:30
And

Brandon Welch 3:32
what a what a blessing for you guys to be here. You grew up. You grew up in that and now you are the third generation leader. Probably the most impressive thing of all is they survived three generations, and Alec is sort of on the forefront of what’s to come for Palen. And I’m, I’m obliged to read your bio. It’s Alex favorite part, really. Yeah,

Speaker 1 3:55
you know a I’m gonna go back. My dad gave you that How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yeah, he gave that book to an employee in our Joplin location, and the guy said, I already do all those things,

Brandon Welch 4:14
raising up humble, humble students there, aren’t you? Yeah, that was probably 25 years ago, but that was probably a really good story to tell his next boss, wasn’t it? It was. So let’s get this part out of the way, because it’s got to be said, there’s there’s more to tell. Okay, Alec Palen is a third generation business leader of Palen Music Center, known for his hard work, dedication and passion, or customer experience. We’re going to talk about that today, prior to joining the family business, Alec was an SEC collegiate golfer and professional touring country artist based in Nashville, drawing from his experience in life music and family business, Alec has brought a fresh perspective and innovative ideas to the business driving growth and success in a highly competitive market as a leader Adel. Alec is admired for his strategic thinking, ability to cast vision and unwavering commitment to making every customer and employee feel like family. He’s dedicated to growing the business his grandfather started in 1963 and becoming an extraordinary leader in the industry. And his free time, Alec enjoys working on the farm, playing music and spending time with his wife, Audrey Palen, who is a rock star in the Frank and Maven world and their two dogs. What are the dogs names that didn’t make the bio?

Speaker 1 5:26
Maple and Merle? Maybe bug. Merle is the sheep dog, poodle mix. Love

Brandon Welch 5:33
It is all that true?

Unknown Speaker 5:38
Yes, I guess so we’re so honored. Thank you.

Brandon Welch 5:44
And we have some, we have some big questions for you today.

Speaker 1 5:47
Well, I me back up again. Backing up. I’m a big fan of this podcast,

Brandon Welch 5:55
and I think I just won.

Speaker 1 5:58
I think I’ve kind of mentioned that to you in the past, but I have truthfully learned so much from you and Caleb in this podcast. It’s been an awesome help, and there’s a free plug for you. Well, free plug.

Brandon Welch 6:13
Consider your fee justified today. So here’s why I’m excited for you. The audience. Alec and his family are the biggest example I’ve I know currently, of David taking on Goliath. So we’re gonna talk about the massive like forces against this business, and how they are not only surviving, but thriving, while other companies in their space are disappearing. The family music business, and really, family owned retailers of any kind are losing to online competitors, and they’re just, they’re boarding up shop while you have doubled the size of your retail sales in the last two years. And I know you’ve it’s probably in the four or 500% if we were to look back, you know, in the years before that, you’ve grown a ton, even since I’ve been a part of your company in last 10 years. So where most people plateau, they’re pushing through that and growing. Probably most exciting for me is that you’re doing it the right way, the family way, and you’re letting good values and an undying vision lead your growth in a world where that’s increasingly hard to do because of the pressures that are on people. So I’m just gonna jump right in here on that theme and say, big box private equity you’ve got, for those who don’t know, there’s some really giant, I would say, Amazon esque, competitors, specifically in the music retail world. And they continue to scoop up market share. They’ve been growing aggressively every year for 20 years. Probably what is allowing you to not only compete with them, but beat them, and for your company to be having the growth season that

Speaker 1 7:49
it still is? I mean, I would say that we’ve chosen to go old school on some things, and we’ve chosen to, you know, be at the forefront of some other things. But one thing that my grandpa was really great at was relationships. And his nickname was grumpy, but he wasn’t that guy you know off the golf course, he was just like, I mean, you know, he could be, you know, but I got to experience

Brandon Welch 8:30
some of his charisma, yeah, early, early on, like he was coming out of the business, right as

Speaker 1 8:36
I started, yeah. And that’s just something that, you know, started with him, and that blossomed into, how can we be the best at relationships when we’ve got Ed reps on the road visiting schools and so?

Brandon Welch 8:53
So an ED rep for you guys is somebody who visits large amounts of customers on a weekly basis, right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 9:01
they’ll leave it, you know, 738 in the morning go from school to school, picking up repairs, delivering repairs, you know, accessories, instruments, yeah,

Brandon Welch 9:12
and your grandpa was, was a band director when came from that world and saw like a sort of a void, as you know, band directors weren’t getting service for music instruments. And back in those days, in back in those days, in this this town was a lot smaller than it is now, and it just was probably really tough for those, those guys to have proper care and get the instruments they needed for the programs, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 9:32
I mean, he was, he was a band director, and saw an opportunity for something to be better than I think he was getting. And it started out as a sheet music store that they bought out and on Walnut Street in downtown Springfield. And him and his brother started this together, and they were under the agreement with each other that if it didn’t work out, that, you know. We would live off of, or they would live off of his brother’s teaching salary, and he would, and, you know, they would kind of fund the business

Brandon Welch 10:09
and two families and a business off of a teacher salary. That would be, yeah, it’d be pretty humble beginnings, but

Unknown Speaker 10:15
they made it happen so,

Brandon Welch 10:17
and here it is today, and they are literally the envy of their industry. I heard relationships. I heard an original vision and kind of a problem solved in the world by the Dan Sr, the founder of Palen music. My experience there is, I saw how tremendously sacred and serious you took the mission of putting instruments in kids hands, and that has to come. The only reason you become a band director is if that’s like the thing driving you right. It’s hard work, and it’s sometimes thankless work. And so the fact that it was born out of an educators art is probably where this came from originally, but I think about the leadership I experienced there with your dad and a lot of people who were still there, and it was like no everything falls second to the mission of putting proper instruments and instruction and encouragement and systems in place that allow kids to succeed. And

Speaker 1 11:17
you think about, you know, six figures of, music,

Brandon Welch 11:24
instruments you guys put in hands every year. That’s a pretty serious thing, because the wrong attention to that when you just become a retailer and you just become selling widgets and you don’t have that heart, the most likely time for somebody to adopt music and make that part of their life is when they are, you know, in grade school, right, when they still have the time and the, you know, brain power to do that. And so if you don’t get that, right, a lot of kids end up growing up without that passion and joy in their life, right? Yeah, I saw that before front of a lot of things that Palen did. So what I would take away that for that for you, is ask how your business can make it more than about selling the thing that you’re selling right?

Speaker 1 12:08
It’s personal to us. I mean, we we’re musicians or band directors, so like great music, we understand and you’re a musician too. So you understand the importance of having the right things at the right time to make you a musician. You know what music’s done for you and maps to your family,

Brandon Welch 12:28
there’s no greater joy than you know, no matter what kind of day you’ve had, pulling out some sort of instrument, guitar, piano or whatever, and just having that language to express through, right? So with that, I think that’s driven you through maybe this next question as well. But tell me about that. There’s a you can have a really big vision, like you can think Walt Disney level vision. You can think Steve Jobs level vision, and the spirit that was alive in your grandpa was somehow passed to the second generation, which is your dad and now the third generation. And I don’t know very many companies that make it to a second generation without losing their way. You are well in your way to third generation, and your way is stronger than ever. What would you say to people who are in that second, third generation mode, and what have you done that has allowed you to do that? Maybe your family is done?

Speaker 1 13:31
Well, I could, I could do 60 minutes on this. I think, I guess first I would just say that there’s no replacement for hard work, and you can’t skimp on that. And I grew up playing golf, and I thought that was what I was going to do for like a profession, and I treated it like that. And, you know, my dad was never, like, forceful of that on me. It was just something. It was my big dream. And he floated this question to me when I was maybe, I don’t know, I started when I was eight, like every single day of my life, playing golf, yeah, yeah. It was a full time deal. I loved it. Maybe when I was eight or nine, floated this question. He was like, Hey, who do you think the hardest worker in the country was today for eight year olds playing golf? And, you know, he floated that question to me. That was like, palatable for an eight year old. It wasn’t like, yeah, who do you think it was? Yeah, he knew what it was doing, though he didn’t know what he was doing, yeah. And of course, I said, Yeah, that was me, you know. And then I made sure that I wasn’t lying the next day. And that was. Something that just kind of stuck with me, and you know that that’s just something I think about, you know, almost every single day, like something to

Brandon Welch 15:11
know about Brett is, he’s the most humble, gentle person you’ll ever meet, but he is the most competitive person you’ll ever meet. Yeah, and that was your experience. You know, within being your dad, I can, I can say the moments that were really foundational to me now as a leader, are things I saw him do in the company that were that way, right? And I worked there for five or six years growing up, until I kind of left and went into my family’s business and but I look back, even today all the time at those things, and that’s that spirit. So if you weren’t listening, who was the hardest worker in the world today, in your industry, who is this? Who’s the hardest working little advertising agency today?

Man, that the question, it can be so healthy if we look at it through that perspective,

Speaker 1 16:04
yeah, and there’s like, smart work and hard work. And I learned the difference in college. It wasn’t till then, you know, I play golf at Mizzou, and I was playing bad, you know, the first year or two, and my answer is like, Oh, I gotta work harder than the guys at Alabama or the guys at LSU. He’s like, so I’m gonna go in between class and I’m gonna just, you know, hit golf balls on the driving range until my finger fingers bleed. And it’s like, really sometimes working hard is like knowing when to take a nap, yeah? And knowing when to read a book, yeah?

Brandon Welch 16:45
It’s that mental game, yeah, yeah. Man, still yet the spirit there is you put in the work, right? And I know that’s been true from my experience with you guys.

Any other stories about your dad that you think allowed him to take this tremendous pressure, like, like, by the time he took it over? Well, he was a big deal already. Yeah,

Alec Palen 17:09
yeah. I mean, we had one store when he took it over, he was two years older than me. I’m 28 he took it over when he was 30. He was maybe 30 or 31 but took over at that time it was, I think, the biggest music store in the country, like square footage wise, yeah, and he actually had a lesson teacher tell him when the transition was happening, he said, You’ll never be the leader that your dad was. This is

Brandon Welch 17:44
an employee, yeah? Said you’ll never be the leader your dad was doubting him.

Speaker 1 17:48
Yeah, he still remembers that. He brought it up in a meeting the other day, um, you know, and he he is reminded me of that because, you know, something that he doesn’t talk about this kind of speaks to his humility, is he’s grown the company, you know, way bigger than it ever had a chance in Yeah. Oh, it’s

Brandon Welch 18:15
yeah. It’s, well, you’re the biggest in North America, probably right at as far as outside of private equity and stuff, right? Exactly, I

Speaker 1 18:24
would say we’re up there, yeah, I don’t know, truthfully, but I would say that we’re up there. It would

Brandon Welch 18:30
be hard to find a sample that is close to what you guys have done, full line, music, story, yeah. Probably, yeah, yeah. So that criticism was a gift, a fuel for him, 100%

Alec Palen 18:42
who’s a blessing? Yeah, wow.

Brandon Welch 18:45
I think it’s so many people that, you know, true entrepreneurs probably don’t get down to that criticism. It bounces off for pretty easy but I think sometimes we don’t take it as the gift that it is and lean into it and say it’s a it’s just a quick awareness of what the world sees, and then it’s kind of your challenge to show them what’s actually in there, right?

Speaker 1 19:06
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people are like, don’t listen to those voices, you know, don’t do things in spite. But like, love the haters. I like it.

Brandon Welch 19:16
I wrote something, I

Speaker 1 19:17
work hard in spite. Yeah, sometimes, you know, it’s good.

Brandon Welch 19:21
I wrote a while back a thing about loving the haters, and that’s, it’s exactly what it is. It’s, it’s probably the biggest sign that you’re on to something, so, something on the topic of growth that I’ve seen you guys do, and so you can grow up a brick and mortar store. It’s simple in concept. Pick another market that needs what you do, show up and do what you’ve done in brick and mortar again, and don’t lose your values and just, you know, put in the hard work, right? That’s simple, not easy. I’m not downplaying that to any degree, but what is entirely different? Talk about a mental game, and man, I’ve had, probably, gosh, I probably had 100 clients over the years. Wanted to do this, take a brick and mortar like you’ll have, and then tap into this online world and sort of have the best of both worlds. Most of them don’t succeed at doing that. You guys have your online store is one of your biggest stores right now, right Tell me about that. Tell me some things you’ve learned about succeeding at online business, growing out of a brick and mortar.

Speaker 1 20:30
You know, it started maybe 10 years ago in a little like, literally, janitor closet. Well,

Brandon Welch 20:40
true story that was my office. Yeah, yeah. I think, well, actually, true story your uncle made me stay several nights till midnight because he gave me a deadline to put the very first products of Palen music online. And it was not even close to what you would even call a shopping cart. Now, it was a one page website that led to a spreadsheet looking thing, and we had to manually put all the pictures in there and write all the descriptions. And I think I put, like, the first two or 300 products online. I don’t know if I’ve ever told you that. No, I didn’t know that. And that’s, that’s what kind of condition it was when whoever, the poor person, inherited after I was not there. And I’m not taking any prey whatsoever. It was Shay. You know what? That’s true. That’s your cousin, because he actually called me when, gosh, we were, we were both really young, and he called me and asked about certain things on that that’s true, yeah. And so Shay made it a real online store, and I didn’t mean to take the mic from you, but no, no, but that janitor closet was, was? That was me, yeah,

Speaker 1 21:41
yeah. Well, I mean, humble beginnings, yeah. So, so

Brandon Welch 21:46
what have you learned? Taking it from that to what it is now?

Well, again, I could do, I could speak a lot on that, but I was not responsible for all of it, that’s for sure. But I was glad to be a part of it. We didn’t hire in somebody who’s been in E comm before. We just were like, these are the guys that we had on our team. You know, let’s see what we can do. You know, let’s, let’s take a stab at it. And luckily, that same group of guys also heavily believed in the power of relationship, and so that was something that was like, very important to us. How can we take what we do really well in person and make it a even better experience online? It’s such an uncontrollable thing because in the store, you can control lighting, music, how fast the customer is greeted. You can feel them moving about, and you know kind of how to read their body language online. You don’t know that you their your pictures on a page really. What are some of the things that you were some of the ways you innovated that online because it it’s even more remarkable to me that you didn’t hire online dudes like I remember that, and yet you’ve got an incredible online business. So how do you do that online? How do you transfer that? Well, the most important thing for me was like giving a personality behind the website. So we’ve got, you know, one of our sales assistants, uh, Nash Smith. He sells guitars, and so we make sure that Nash Smith is on our YouTube channel. People know what he looks like when he talks. They they hear His voice, and they, they see him, and they can build a relationship with Him. We send out Polaroid pictures that are stupid expensive with every single guitar that we sell with Nash holding it, wow, with our luthier that just set it up for this person. Wow.

So I’m on there looking for guitars. I think I’m shopping Amazon for, you know, I think I’m just looking for a item, and I come across your site, and you’ve taken a personalized, almost a handwritten experience, and you send me a Polaroid picture. What? An email or what? No, it’s,

Speaker 1 24:21
it’s the first thing you see besides your guitar when you open up the case. Is a picture of the guy that you talk to on the phone holding your guitar with the luthier that set it up. And then there’s, you know, handwritten letter from Nash. Wow, you know, and it’s not like the same thing every time it’s, you know, something genuine,

Brandon Welch 24:46
personalized, yeah. I mean, I know people that buy $100,000 cars and don’t get that kind of experience like, I think that’s like Ferrari level. If you were to buy a Ferrari, I think you’d get a lot of authentic, you know, I was the technician that signed off on this. And all this stuff. But there are people that buy things way, way more high end than that, and you don’t even have inch of a personal touch like that.

Speaker 1 25:08
It’s worth the money. You know, we’re actually, if you could call it beta testing, okay, a new thing that you pretty fancy language beta it is, yeah, we’re testing a new a new way to receive guitars as a customer. So we’ve got this light sensor that’s connected to a speaker, which is not cheap, but I believe it’s worth it, and program a custom message on that speaker. So as soon as they open their guitar, they hear Nash Smith saying, Hey, man, hey, hey, Brandon, I just want to thank you for supporting our mission, and I hope that you love this. Gibson Les Paul, I had one too when I was 14 years old. My grandpa gave it to me. I’m going to pass it down to my kids. I hope you do the same. Wow. Goosebumps. So let me just point

Brandon Welch 26:08
out the uniqueness of that experience, because a couple things I know their audience may not, yeah, a guitar like you just described would maybe be a couple $1,000 purchase, and everybody online is pulling it out of the manufacturer’s box, putting it in their box, putting their shipping label on it, and sending it to the customer. You are taking it out of the manufacturer’s box because the things like instruments have their own unique characteristics to them. And they are wood and they are they all get a little finicky with weather and stuff like that. You were going through a complete setup process photographing everyone just like it was already mine. You’ve got a master of Luther there. Like you’re photographing them individually. You’re inspecting them for things that even the manufacturer didn’t catch, which I know you catch things from time to time. You are putting your own scent in the case, I happen to know that you guys do that, you are spending the better part of couple hours probably with that device, then taking pictures, to do all this stuff, then putting it in your own box and then sending it. And on top of that, you’re putting a handwritten note. And what’s remarkable about that to me is there’s not a whole lot of margin in those

Speaker 1 27:21
items. My dad says the music business is the worst get rich quick scheme of all time.

Brandon Welch 27:28
I just because I’ve been behind the scenes there, I can, I can see how that would be true. Yeah. And so way less margin than probably anybody on this podcast is personalizing in their business. I mean, sometimes you’re in the 10 20% sure, and so maybe the equivalent of taking apple and then like putting your own spin on it, and you don’t make money on Apple devices either. So I think what that says to me is it’s so evident to me how strong your mission is, and how strong those values have to be that for a CFO and for the guy who writes the checks to go, yeah, that’s worth it, because we believe in the sanctity of that moment and that connection with a customer. And I think what’s behind that? Because you’ve shared with me before, you may lose money on the first sale. Think about that concept. If your competitors were putting that type of effort into their

Unknown Speaker 28:27
experience, um,

Brandon Welch 28:29
they wouldn’t have to advertise for that second sale. Would they

Speaker 1 28:32
correct so they didn’t buy, they

Brandon Welch 28:36
didn’t buy, uh, guitar from an online website. And by the way, that translates into your store, little more obvious in a store environment, but from a website where margins are thinner, competition is heavier, advertising is extremely expensive, you’re doing that and then locking in that second, third, fourth, 10th sale, and maybe even that generational sale, right?

Unknown Speaker 28:56
Yeah, yeah. So cool.

Brandon Welch 28:59
I don’t, I don’t. I literally do not know of an online company that’s doing that at the highest levels.

Speaker 1 29:04
There’s a lot of risk to it. And you know, when you’re unless you build this way, Amazon couldn’t do that right now, unless they were like, hey, what’s a good idea to cut our profit by like half,

Brandon Welch 29:21
you know. And David, that’s such a that’s such a powerful lesson, though, because the question being asked in every scaling business right now is, how can we make more profit, not, how can we make less profit and get more goodwill,

Unknown Speaker 29:38
right? Yep, that’s right.

Brandon Welch 29:40
So you’re zigging while they’re zagging.

Alec Palen 29:43
Yeah, yeah, we are.

Brandon Welch 29:45
Dave Ramsey calls this the relationship revolution entre leadership. A couple years ago, that was the big thing. It’s like, people are tired of clicks, people are tired of buying stuff without a connection, and you guys are bringing that back alive. In every corner of the way to buy now, it’s like, it’s the coolest thing ever to me, so it’s

Speaker 1 30:05
got to be genuine, yeah, where people see right through it.

Brandon Welch 30:10
Any other things that you’re doing as a paradigm shift? So you talked about the way you’re delivering that product with all those personal touches to it, like in store wise, yeah, anything else in that category?

Speaker 1 30:26
Yeah, yeah. I overthink everything. And you know, it’s a blessing and a curse, but I obsess over like the experience you know, that people get, and that’s probably little easier to do when your last name is on it. And you know that can be a blessing and a curse as well, but things like the music that people hear when they walk through the door. That’s really important. Do you have the perfect song to walk into a music store? Do you have that playing all day long or like so your people don’t go crazy a playlist of the perfect songs to walk into your store, like, what? What atmosphere? What song is the best to walk into, you know, your roofing company’s showroom,

Brandon Welch 31:36
right? You know, the roofing company? Yeah, we could get that obsessive, and should at the highest level, at a grease monkey car shop. We should get that excited, right?

Speaker 1 31:44
And is there a chance that they’re going to walk in at the end of the song, when it’s fading out into the next song? Yes, so let’s think about that and fix that, because it it matters, at least it does to me. It matters so much every single person. You know, it’s kind of a funny way to say it, but like, how many teeth are they going to see when they walk through the door? Not? I’m not talking about hiring people without teeth. That’s fine, but yeah, are they going to get smiled at? Wow and genuine when they walk through the door.

Brandon Welch 32:21
So we skipped right through my fourth question. But when I said, Is there anything else, what I meant to ask is, you’ve had tremendous growth. Probably the most remarkable thing about it that I could say, and maybe surprising thing on the Maven Marketing Podcast, is that you have done this without advertising. What I knew to be true, even working there all those years ago, and what I know since is that you spend a very, very, very, very small amount of a very, very, very large top line revenue on advertising. And part of it is what you just said. But if I were to, if I were to ask you, how, how else have you done that

Speaker 1 33:02
without advertising? You’re gonna like this answer. I might like this a lot. Okay, I read your book, did you?

Alec Palen 33:12
It’s very good, by the way, yeah, it broke my heart in the most endearing way possible. So first side note, thank you for being vulnerable with your story.

Brandon Welch 33:24
It’s true story

Alec Palen 33:28
values vision vows got that

Brandon Welch 33:32
right. Took a lot of chapters to get to that, but yeah, that was the pinnacle of the book. Vision values vows.

Speaker 1 33:42
That is something that, I mean, we don’t go a day without talking about our core values. What is it? Sent Marshall, I think her name is, yep. She talks about her quote is, our values hang on the walls and operate in the halls. Ooh. And I love that. Hang on the walls. Operate the halls. I love it. Yeah. And I would just say that if you’re not living up to your core values, or if it’s just something on the wall, then you need to develop new core values that you actually believe in. Yeah, yeah. Usually, a lot of times it’s just a corporate bubble gum mattress. It gets mocked, if you, if you’re not truly believing in it, seen that happen. Our first core value is golden rule, and that will never change, as long as I’m in the company. Yeah, I won’t let it. You know, I

Brandon Welch 34:40
think as long as long as you’re in the as long as you’re doing the golden rule, you’ll be the living, breathing part of the company you guys have created. You said earlier, when we were talking before this, you’ve done it without advertising, but you couldn’t have done it without marketing, and that just. Are some of the some of my favorite people that I study in my space, there’s a huge difference in marketing and advertising. Marketing is everything you do. It’s great showmanship. It’s the teeth you talked about. It’s how clean your bathrooms are, which we happen to both play that part in that mission at pale Music Center, we both clean the bathrooms lots of times. It’s your lighting, it’s your smell. You talked about, I’m gonna ask you a minute about the specific scent that Alec has had engineered for their company, okay, the taste of your water fountain music in your lobby. You talked about that, how clean the floors are, how much product you have on hand. What’s your follow up? What’s your speed or delivery? I mean, that is marketing, right? And I’ve also long said, and actually we talk about in the book, the biggest example of a client with explosive growth that I’ve ever had was somebody who had never done advertising, but did all of the marketing things right, just like you’re doing them now. I mean, their experience was on point, their vision was on point. Their values were on point, and what they wanted to have happen for the world was what drove them. And the thing is, you can grow to a lot, and you guys have, like, big, big numbers without advertising, but the second you bore advertising on that fire, when you’re ready for it, it it’s like, it’s the biggest thing that I look at is, before I take a client on, I ask, how hard is my job going to be here? Because you cannot save a mediocre business. You cannot grow a mediocre business with advertising. All you can do is make a good business grow faster than it would. Yeah, I mean, that’s the truth. So down to the smell, and then I’m gonna share a story that proves, I think, how well you do this. And it’s a really good lesson for anybody listening, you obsess over the scent.

Alec Palen 36:57
So you wanna know how we got that scent?

Brandon Welch 36:59
I do. I also wanna know why you think it’s important, but okay,

Speaker 1 37:06
well, I’ll tell the story of how we got the scent. It’s probably three coming up on maybe four years now, my uncle, who is an owner of the company, passed away, and you know, way too soon, he was in his 50s, and he had a candle in his office that we just loved the smell of. And his office smelled great because of it. And so I did. I remember it, yeah, he was big on scent and tastes and like experience sauces and yeah, yeah. So we’ve got a friend that has a company that that is in the business of recreating scents. We could say yes, one of the largest, literally,

Brandon Welch 38:03
like air conditioning, like scent conditioning companies, probably anywhere, yeah,

Speaker 1 38:09
yeah. And that was his best friend since the time that they were, like, four years old, and they’ve always been best friends. And so we talked to him, just said, Hey, is there any chance we could replicate this into an oil and, you know, pump it through our HVAC systems. Wow. And he said, Yes, I will make that happen. And, you know, I know that it’s like a super expensive process to have that done. Yeah, I’m just assuming, but it has to be. He never mentioned that once, you know, he was like, I’ll take care of it. Yeah? Well, it

Brandon Welch 38:44
was a tragedy, an absolute, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 38:45
awful. I mean, I,

Brandon Welch 38:49
I still think about that, because Danny was Dan Junior was my boss, right? I spent a lot of years next to him, literally, with that candle. So that’s a, that’s a cool, personal story, yeah? You You take that and you literally put it in the cases of all the instruments you deliver. And like I know the difference in buying something from some other online store and you and it’s because it’s your your experience. Your experiential detail is down to that granular level.

Speaker 1 39:19
It’s emotional. It’s absolutely most. I can remember a time when I was maybe 13, I got this terrible pair of shoes from a store in Springfield. It was a record they so they sell records there, I guess they sold sell shoes. And my dad hasn’t bought a record from this store in 30 years, 40 years, maybe even more than that, okay, since he was 13, you know, yeah, and I brought home the box that the shoes were in. He goes, Did you buy it at best store? And I said, Yes. How’d you know that? He said, I could smell it. Yeah, wow.

Brandon Welch 40:00
It brought back all the positive emotions, right? Yeah. And so, if you think about the this is, this is some really nerdy stuff. We didn’t plan to talk about this, but the kid who gets a trumpet, and they’re excited because they, you know, got their first instrument, and now they’re going to be in the band and all that stuff, and it has the Palin music scent experience, right? Or maybe their first guitar, or whatever, every time they come back for supplies that year, they’re associating that sensory experience with that original joy. And generally, music instruments are associated with joy, right? Like we don’t get a new instrument and not feel joy from that, right? And you’re inspired and all that stuff. And so

Speaker 1 40:41
can I tell you another level that was, I didn’t plan on bringing this, yeah, but it speaks to what you just said. So the scent that was in his office was based on a scent you would smell at a very popular theme park. Also will be joy, a lot of joy, a lot of joy.

Brandon Welch 41:00
And so anybody who’s been there as a kid, I think I know the theme park, but we won’t say it, because there’s 10,000 subscribers to maybe marketing podcasts, and probably one of them works for that big deal. They’re probably, probably looking, probably filtering us out so but they took that and that joy moment. Now I get that at Palin, and that’s just brands are a collection of sight, sounds and sensory experience could be even taste and smell like. You know what a McDonald’s french fry tastes like? I just said it, and you thought it, and now you probably want one, right? That’s a brand, right? You know what the seasoning of the steakhouse you like is the best? Right? That’s a sensory experience. Also, you know the smells of your favorite stores, and so there’s just a lot of chemistry and psychology that goes into if I smell something I already like, or if it resembles a positive experience, it’s immediate joy. And I you, I know you haven’t done this to a granular level, but I guarantee you it plays a part in your conversion experience and your likelihood of selling something, it’s a feel good thing.

Speaker 1 42:01
Well, you we don’t like say this, and I don’t think the customers go, wow. They were waiting for me to walk in. But they we want them to have this feeling like we’ve been waiting for you, like there’s a there’s a great story in an old history book called The Holy Bible about, there was a there was a dinner at Lazarus house, and Jesus came. Very famous guy character, yeah. And the book, yeah, so Mary of the town of Bethany, Mary of Bethany, her name, she had this big jar of perfume that was worth a ton of money,

Brandon Welch 42:53
yeah, 10s of 1000s by today’s standards, right? Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 42:57
I mean, it was a lot, right? And you know how stingy we are with, like, Cologne, we’re like, one spray, yeah, it’ll be good, yeah. And she was like, I want to wash your feet, Jesus, and I’m going to use the whole thing, because I’ve been waiting for you.

Brandon Welch 43:22
What an expression of love appreciation. And that was, that was an except, that was a waiting for you moment, right? That was a you feel valued and special moment, right?

Speaker 1 43:33
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, it’s a little bit different, you know, we’ve got, you know, Jesus isn’t coming through our door every two minutes. But the the principle is, when I walk through the door, it should feel like we were waiting for you, you know, and not in a creepy way, but just like the music is, like you walked in at the right time, absolutely.

Brandon Welch 44:03
Yeah. Well, dude, I was there this Saturday, and I know I texted you about this, but I’ve obviously been a customer for going on probably three decades now, and now, my kids go there, and all of our kids take music lessons, and they’re, they’re getting the joy and the gift of music through what your family’s created. Um, but there was a new employee there Saturday, and she had no idea who I was, and I thought, I’m a big deal, but we are frequent customers there. We come there weekly, right? Um, shouldn’t know who my kids were, and I brought my son in to get a little thing for his guitar, just a small accessory. And we’re in the, we’re in the just the smallest item part of the store. And when I walked in, I saw all of her teeth. I promise her name was Brooke. And you know how you’re kind of like, I know I got it. You know? I know where the I know where the milk and bread is. No i. Don’t need any help. That’s, that’s kind of the mode I was in because we were in a hurry. And so I went over there, and she, I said, No, I think we’re good. I know where it’s at, and I’m going for and she came over there. She’s like, Are you sure? Do you want to take any of these out? Do you want to try any of them out? I mean, this is a small item. It’s called a capo, just a little $20

Speaker 1 45:18
item, the clip on the guitar. And she

Brandon Welch 45:21
got down to my son’s level, which he’s even shorter than me, so that’s, that’s a hard to do. And she asked him, hey, what kind of guitar Do you have, man? And just he got to tell her about the guitar. And she goes, Oh, is it the rosewood one or the COA one or whatever? Just talking about just nerd down on guitars, right? A 10 year old, okay, my 10 year old shy, okay, so takes a lot to get him in a conversation, right? And she’s like, Well, can I take you back here and show you how to use this? And I’m and I’m going from the mode of like, okay, I know how to do this. I don’t need any help with this item to like, Wow. This is really, really cool. And she has no idea that I’m not, like, a first time customer, okay? And she proceeds for the next 20 minutes to make my 10 year old feel like a million dollars. And it was only and so she took him back to the private stock guitar room and said, Can I show you my favorite, you know, tailored guitar. And you know, what do you think of this one? And she didn’t have to do any of this. She literally did not have to do, we would have walked to the counter, left in five minutes and had what we needed, and it wouldn’t have been a bad experience, by any stretch. And he he’s talked about that every day since we were there, and that was almost a week ago. I have told five people about that experience with a company that I obviously already adore, and that was with a new employee, okay? That’s just somebody who’s not a seasoned whatever, and she was there on a Saturday, and it was in the afternoon, and that’s, you know, that’s like the slowest time in retail, right? So I guess my question is, we’re transitioning from that is marketing, right? That is, that is how a company that’s 60 years old has stayed alive and grown and beat everybody in your industry without heavy advertising of any kind. But the final question I want to ask you is, how do you attract the Brooks? How do you attract people like that and

Speaker 1 47:21
foster that? Well, that’s, that is a million dollar question. I I think I’ve got $100,000 answer, okay, but I’ll give it to you. I truly believe that who you are is who you attract, and to some degree, like I’m pretty quiet and reserved, and some of my best friends are the complete opposite. So I think that that’s true to some degree, but we’ve got some amazing, outgoing, extroverted folks in the company that believe in the things that I do, and believe in the things that my my dad does, and our admin team, and they’ve done a great job at understanding the the people that, yeah, we need to hire.

Brandon Welch 48:20
I know the leader you’re talking about in that company, and actually he has his own podcast. The pay is it, go ahead and plug it.

Speaker 1 48:27
Palen. Palen Music Center on YouTube, and he has a series called chords and coffee. Chords

Brandon Welch 48:33
and coffee. Nate is one of the most magnetic. Feel good, like just ooze goodness and leaves you 10 times better than he found you in five minute experience, right? Yep. So you have to be that. You have to have that force and to your to your point, you and your dad aren’t particularly loud talkers. We had to turn the mic up for you today, ideally. And so you attracted a Brook by having somebody who was worthy of attracting a Brook, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:03
And I would also say, I mean, every company like, if the CEO isn’t, you know, a quality person, you’re not going to attract the quality district manager or the quality local store manager or the quality Vice President, you know, yeah, so, yeah,

Brandon Welch 49:24
yeah, because those people would want to work for them, and Nate’s worked for you all for what, 20 years now, and roundabout way, yeah, so, so I heard, I heard, know your weakness and put in the ingredient that you want and need In that retail experience, yeah, I think I also heard in their values. And something I know to be true of your company is you have a very spiritual leader team, and I know that it’s something that is alive and bounces off the halls and in your leadership building, and I know that trickles. Down to a certain value of a person that you attract, not that it’s a policy or an exclusive clause of who you hire. But do you have anything to say about that?

Speaker 1 50:12
Yeah, I mean, my dad is I very lucky. I have an awesome dad. And you know, I would say that most people don’t get to say that, and he’s very strong in his convictions, and he’s led the company with faith, and that is really painful thing to do. To do well,

Brandon Welch 50:50
it’s a, yeah, it’s the highest level of authenticity you could probably have. And then, but exposure to in a sensible world, that’s a tough it’s a tough thing, right? Yeah, so, yeah, he’s done that. I’ve seen him do that, but I know you see it row every day.

Speaker 1 51:12
We make a lot of business decisions that are probably bad decisions on paper that are correct through the lenses of our core values and our faith. Wow. And so, you know, man, I could share a lot of examples, but he is. I’ll just, I’ll just summarize and say that he is an inspiration to me for how I want to lead the company, and, you know, the the level of faith that I want to have, yeah, because it’s like, amen,

Brandon Welch 51:57
I share that. I share that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, that’s it. Wow. What a what a cool episode. Personally, very gratifying to me. If you’ve been listening, I hope that what’s sticking with you

Alec Palen 52:12
is how big of

Brandon Welch 52:15
a example of success in the probably the most aggressive headwinds that I know of possible for a company like this to do what it’s doing without advertising on the Maven Marketing Podcast, where our goal is, our mission is to help you eliminate waste in advertising, and that is why Alec and this company is just Such a perfect example to have as a guest and but, but the reason they can do that is because of this super strong conviction to mission and a vision for the world, which involves the joy of music, yes, but also what I know to be behind the scenes, and what Alec was just hinting at, is a spiritual calling to love people through that music and through their product. And I would just encourage you, Alec and Brett and just the whole family of Palen is an extremely good example of this. But I know others who are doing this in roofing

Alec Palen 53:18
and medical

Brandon Welch 53:22
and and other retail spots. And when I look back, and I kind of got a unique view, because I see multiple industries, and I see people who struggle, and I see people who win, and I see people who win then struggle, but the ones that are constantly growing and don’t have the pains that are like help me save this revenue. Are the ones that are doing what you guys are doing. And it’s one thing to be a part of that. It’s one thing to be a part of that leave for 15 years and look back and go, Wow, that was freaking special. And that was that is you guys. So, so, so glad we’re friends. I’m so thankful for you and everything you’ve learned. And I’m going to recap, if that’s okay, five things I think I heard relationships are everything they will save you when headwinds come your way. That was from Dan SR all the way down to modern day 60 years later, there’s no replacement for outworking everyone in the world at what you’re doing, whether it’s golf or music, retail. Know when you’re in a paradigm shift. You shifted the paradigm of online business to incorporate an authentic retail, real life experience.

Alec Palen 54:38
Well, not just me. We added you, what? Several Yeah, you as, I can’t take you as

Brandon Welch 54:44
a plural, Okay, second person,

Alec Palen 54:46
yeah, thank you. Yes,

Brandon Welch 54:49
marketing is more important than advertising, and let your vision, values and vows drive that. And you won’t need advertising at all, but it can leverage you what you’re doing next.

Alec Palen 54:58
I would also say.